by jluster

Help is on the way

in Links / Psychology

Fri, 02 Jan 2004, 04:18

When you decide to go from drinker to ex-drinker, and stay one, you will undoubtedly meet others, who made this decision before you. And just like any other habit, from smoking to compulsive shopping, or excessive physical exercise, every one has a different success or failure story to tell.

Friend A will tell you, how a certain program helped him to remain committed to his decision. Friend B, however, will tell you, how she gained no benefit from it, and how another approach supported her strides. And, later, out of the woodworks, comes Person C, who will try to sell you some guaranteed remedy, no personal commitment and work required.

The American Psychiatric Association, APA, and the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA), have studied numerous programs, and have yet to point the finger at any one of them, declaring it a clear winner. A recent study on A.A., Alcoholics Anonymous, a faith-based program, however, seems to have opened the way for a deeper analysis of such programs, re-kindling interest in non-psychiatric programs as alternatives to one-on-one sessions and medically aided recovery.

In the long run, it will be you, who decides. And it will be you, and only you, who will be able to find the right way to do it. If it doesn't work the first time (in most cases, the more committed you are, the more likely it will work right away), don't despair. There's a second attempt coming right up.

And, as always, let me know, if I can help.



Jan 5, 2004 11:42:47 AM

There's a discussion going on at We Quit Drinking over whether or not one can view AA as a religion. Personally, i draw parallels between the two regardless of whether or not i would label AA as a religion. First, i take severe issue with Webster's def...

Jan 8, 2004 3:01:18 PM
Brain Waves

Lunch: Casey and I had a wonderful lunch with Howard Fields at Zazie in Cole Valley. Howard leads the Wheeler Center for the Neurobiology of Addiction at UCSF. (a topic that many are fascinated by) Casey got to know Howard...


Jan 2, 2004 8:55:49 AM

Thanks for this. Interestingly, it seems AA, certainly in the US, has very widespread popularity -- almost to the extent that one might think it is the ONLY solution. For people who don't get into God (note capital "G") this can be a big obstacle. Glad you mentioned these other possible avenues.

Jan 2, 2004 2:28:14 PM

I was talking to someone who is studying religion and he pointed to AA as one of the most successful religions. You can to just about any city and look up AA and find a meeting. It's quite amazing. We were of course talking about religion in the "good" sense and AA, to him, was one of the best examples of a well organized religion.

Jan 2, 2004 5:28:43 PM

I did some research into this after seeing one too many AA references on TV a little while back and it sounds like Secular Organizations for Sobriety is worth checking out. Anyone here have any experience with them?

Jan 2, 2004 8:34:48 PM
4 - Drew

FYI, AA is NOT a religion. The whole program of AA is contained in the first 165 pages of The Big Book of AA - there is actually an entire chapter called "We Agnostics" that addresses this mis-conception. The Big Book talks about finding a "higher power of your own understanding" or a "power greater than yourself of your own understanding". For some it is God, or Budda, for others it is Love, the group at the AA meeting, the ocean - whatever works.

Speaking for myself, the key point is that "the same man drinks again" - meaning that if I do not address whatever it is in me that makes me drink, I will drink again at some point, despite whatever noble intentions I may have. How do I address the problem in me? Some help from something outside of me to make some changes in me and how I see and interact with myself and my life would probably be good, as what is inside of me has been making me drink - hence a "power greater than myself" or "a higher power of my own understanding"(or in my case "a higher power of my own mis-understanding).

I am personally not a big fan of religion. I am a fan of spirituality, because it tells me that I am a participant in the universe, but not the focal point of the universe - although I do have my narcisistic moments ;-)

Jan 2, 2004 10:15:43 PM

I think it depends on your definition of the word "religion". If you define it as an organized community around a shared spiritual experience, AA is a religion. It's not a religion in the sense that a Church is a religion. If you think about all of the good things associated with religions, I think you could consider AA a religion. Think about the Quakers for instance...

Jan 3, 2004 1:40:25 AM
6 - Drew

IMHO, Alcoholism is primarily a self-diagnosed disease - there are people who drink alcoholically and can then stop on their own with no ill effects, and then there are people who cannot - those people are Alcoholics, who are not able to stop drinking without some outside help such as AA, if at all - their lives may depend on AA. As one of the hopelessly afflicted(while running on my own will-power, anyway), rhetoric surrounding the #1(largest) treatment for those people is important to me.

From Websters:
re·li·gion( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-ljn) n.

1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2.A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
3.The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
4.A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
5.A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

How is AA different?
- AA has 1 purpose, and 1 purpose only - to help people who don't want to drink.
- There are no authorities in AA - it is a fellowship of equals
- The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking
- Based upon the definition above, #5 comes close, but not really. The 'Cause principle or devotion" is sobriety in this case, not AA.

How do I make this distinction?
- Religions are generally exclusive to each other, and AA has no opinions on anything outside of Alcohol, and only opinions even then.
- Religions have a fundamental sense of 'right' and 'wrong', while AA leaves it up to each individual to determine that
- Religions usually claim to be 'the one true way', while AA makes no such claims - its simply an open option for those who want to try it.

Why is this important to me?
- An inclusive and non-judgemental attitude in life is important to me, and religions judge by their very nature - yes, even the Quakers.
- The label 'religion' has a tendency to polarize people, and lead to hasty judgements about things which they know very little - contempt prior to investigation
- AA is very important to me in my life. I like it because it is a loose framework of experience, suggestions and support that I believe has saved my life. I allowed AA into my life precisely because there were no demands made of me, nothing shoved down my throat, and because I was welcomed with open arms to simply be who I was, at a time when I had nowhere else to go in life except the bottle. Had I felt it was a religion by any definition of the word, I might not have stopped to listen and see for myself.

I'm apologize if I'm coming off as argumentative or dogmatic - that is not my intention. The distiction between a religion and a fellowship in this case has simply been very important to me personally, and part of manner in which I can pay back the debt I owe to AA is to try and tell share my experience with it honestly. AA is by no means the only solution - I am definitely biased, because it was the only one that worked(s) for me.

I only wish that I had the means to express myself more succinctly ;-)


Jan 3, 2004 6:48:02 AM

I agree with Drew. He said it all quite well. Religion is the worship of a higher power and spirituality is using a higher power to do something. The 12 Step Program of Recovery practiced by the fellowship of AA is a spiritual program for developing a concept of a higher power (whatever that may be, doorknobs have been known to work - I've seen only one drunken doorknob but that sighting was suspect since I was drunk) that can help you stop drinking and stay stopped.

Words have magic and power when you're involved in spiritual recovery. That is why it is wise to listen to those who have been doing it successfully for the longest period of time so that you can take advantage of the collective group wisdom and avoid the mistakes others have made. I tried everything else along with the state trying everything else. AA was what worked for me and as an added benefit gave me a life worth living.

Jan 3, 2004 8:31:04 PM
8 - Chris

I've been involved with a local Al-Anon Family Group for just over two months now, and as such feel that I can offer some insight into Drew's post on how AA differs from the dictionary definition of religion. I'll do this a point at a time.

- AA has 1 purpose, and 1 purpose only - to help people who don't want to drink.

Yes and no, individual AA groups are given enough autonomy to choose the scope of their inclusion criteria. This allows groups to extend a helping hand to those with somewhat wider chemical dependency issues than alcoholism.

Further, the goal of AA's sister organization Al-Anon (which draws from the same steps, traditions and other literature) is to help family and friends of alcoholics learn vital coping mechanisms.

- There are no authorities in AA - it is a fellowship of equals

Yes and no. It is made clear at the beginning of each meeting that only AA-approved literature be distributed and discussion of other programs be curtailed. Who wrote the steps and traditions? Who decides what AA-approved literature is? It may be that there's a democratic process at work, but in the end there's still an authority.

Further, the second AA tradition states "For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority—a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience."

- The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking

No. The third tradition may state that "the only requirement is the desire to stop drinking", but the desire to stop drinking is second to the rule of anonymity. If you come to a meeting with the desire to stop drinking and you can't bring yourself to agree to the rule of anonymity, you'll be turned away at the door.

There are other rules which must be obeyed - the observance of closed and open meetings and who may be included; the rules about outside funding, name-lending, opinions on outside issues, etc.

Do I think AA is like a religion. Yes. I believe it employs some of the same tools that religions use to propagate itself and its memes. If looked at from a different perspective, anonymity is one such tool.

Let's look at the fifth AA tradition:

"Each group has but one primary purpose—to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers."

While good-intentioned, it's still viral replication.

I posit that if one were to strip away the religious aspects of the literature and disregard the memetic rules you would be left not with a guide to coping with alcoholism but with a guide to general mental health that helps one learn the ability to cope with difficult situations in a healthy way.

Jan 3, 2004 9:06:47 PM

I order to discuss this constructively, I'm happy to quit using the word "religion" since we're getting into a semantic argument. (I'm a shito and I don't even believe in the "one god" thing but I am spiritual and am looking for a religion.) What I meant when I called it a religion was an organization built around a spiritual experience with all of the good images of religion like community, support, giving, humbling, etc. I see people who are "members" of AA as people who seem to have a strong bond with the group, a spiritual experience from the meetings and a desire to "spread the world". I would even assert that of all organizations of this type (thanks Bob for the insight into this) AA has become one of the most ubiquitous and useful to society.

Anyway, what I was trying to do was to try to deconstruct AA and it's success into its various components and see if blogs or other tools could augment it or add a new dimension to it in some way.

Since Frank's new entry on anonymity is one of the things I wanted to explore, I'll post my additional thoughts there.

Jan 4, 2004 3:52:47 AM

Sounds like Chris is in a heavy area. No one is turned away around here.

The second AA tradition states "For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority—a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience."

The "ultimate authority" on how an AA group practices AA's program is the group conscience, you know, something is discussed and everybody votes. On a larger scale AA holds really big meetings called General Service Conferences where issues and interpertations can benefit from a larger group conscience. Even then the results are just suggestions.

The most common AA definitions of religion and spirituality I have heard in the rooms is that religion is the worship of a higher power and spirituality is using a higher power to achieve someting that one cannot do by themselves. AA is about no drinking, other 12 Step Programs such as AlaTeen, Alanon, NA, OA, PA, EA, GA. etc. are about not engaging in other obssesive-compulsive behaviors or addictions.

Jan 4, 2004 7:21:41 PM
11 - Drew

I can see where Chris is coming from, but this is not my experience in AA. Al-Anon has a lot to do with control and identity issues(I go occasionally), and while it uses the 12 steps, it is really a fundamentally different program in terms of the whole vibe you get there.

At least here in LA there are a lot of different AA meetings, and they all have their own vibe - I always suggest to people that are new that they go to a bunch of them, and eturn to the ones that they like.

The Big Book is pretty specific (and over and over) that it wants you to find a 'god or higher power of your own understanding.'

When I said that no one was in charge I meant individual or individuals. I sponsor a few guys in AA, and they all read literature from outside of AA that is related to their recovery. AA clearly states that it has no monopoly on recovery or alcoholism, and the big book even states that doctors and psychiatrists should be consulted if needed.

Outside literature is not sold or distributed at meetings for the reason that to do so could consitute an endorsement, and AA does not make endorsements, or have opinions on outside issues - its a 'singleness of purpose' thing - no politics.

Anonymity is all about safety for people going there, and anonymity only extendes outside of AA. IMHO it is silly to think that it is used for control. But then again, I AM biased.

Jan 5, 2004 5:40:34 PM

Btw: i'd like to offer the most entertaining quote that came from the comments on my blog entry concerning this discussion:

AA is "really a religion-buddy: it isn't a full-on religion, but many of its best friends are."

Jan 5, 2004 5:54:58 PM
13 - Joi Ito

Zephoria, your entry is GREAT and I love that quote. It's amazing how much baggage words have. "Religion" "Alcoholic"... sometimes I wish we could keep the meanings and dump the baggage. I hate calling myself an alcoholic just as much as I hate the idea of joining a religion. (At least from the labeling perspective.) I understand at some level, taking the label of "alcoholic" is part of the exercise of humility and identity, but I wonder if I can't do it on my own without all of the ritual collected over the years.

I'm going to go off on a tangent here, but I guess what I'm hoping for is to see how far I can get on my own before I reach out to established rituals. I think this is the rebel in my trying to get as far on my own as possible. Also, I want to explore and see if we can create new rituals. Is this stupid and insane?

Jan 5, 2004 7:32:39 PM Books: Not God: A History of Alcoholics Anonymous puts forth the proposition that is not neccessary in AA to believe in God to achieve sobriety but it is neccessary that you come to an understanding that you are Not God. The power to heal is external and the healing is a communal experience as that power flows through you. The first step, I am powerless. The second step, I believe that a power exists. Third step, I'll let that power run my show. The higher power can be anything external from a doorknob to the fellowship to any religious concept of a God to one of your own definition. What is really key is that if you are alcoholic you understand that you are not God, you do not have the power within yourself alone to stop drinking, you need to ask someone or something external for help. Read about the actor in the How It Works Chapter in the Big Book.

Jan 5, 2004 10:11:26 PM

Johhny, just for discussion sake, how can a person who does not believe in god, turn around and believe that a power exists and they will let that power run their show? I'm pretty sure those negate each other, no? Also, I think saying "you do not have the power within yourself alone to stop drinking, you need to ask someone or something external for help" is exactly why we're doing this site, because some of us feel that isn't the case at all.

Jan 6, 2004 8:45:32 AM

Sean -
If you felt, or thought, that you had the power within yourself to stop drinking and stay stopped you wouldn't be here, you would just quit. There are some people who do that, I've known them. It is not a big deal to them they just quit without any struggle or need to justify their action.

People who have trouble with a concept of a higher power (not neccessisarily God, it could be the group) and cannot quit drinking through their own resources have a choice. That choice is to try something they don't believe in or continue drinking. Alcoholism is progressive, it continues to get worse as the mind and body deteriorate eventually leading to the diseases of Alcoholism and death.

At least 50% of the people who turn to AA have a "God problem." Personally I think that down deep they do believe in God and are just really angry that they can't drink normally. The Big Book was expressly written for the purpose of helping people who can't quit drinking on their own and need a path to a higher power: "To one who feels he is an atheist or agnostic such an experience seems impossible, but to continue as he is means disaster, especially if he is an alcoholic of the hopeless variety. To be doomed to an alcoholic death or to live on a spiritual basis are not always easy alternatives to face.

But it isn’t so difficult. About half our original fellowship were of exactly that type. At first some of us tried to avoid the issue, hoping against hope we were not true alcoholics. But after a while we had to face the fact that we must find a spiritual basis of life —or else. Perhaps it is going to be that way with you. But cheer up, something like half of us thought we were atheists or agnostics. Our experience shows that you need not be disconcerted.

If a mere code of morals or a better philosophy of life were sufficient to overcome alcoholism, many of us would have recovered long ago. But we found that
such codes and philosophies did not save us, no matter how much we tried. We could wish to be moral, we could wish to be philosophically comforted, in fact,
we could will these things with all our might, but the needed power wasn’t there. Our human resources, as marshalled by the will, were not sufficient; they failed utterly.

Lack of power, that was our dilemma. We had to find a power by which we could live, and it had to be a Power greater than ourselves. Obviously. But where and how were we to find this Power?

Well, that’s exactly what this book is about. Its main object is to enable you to find a Power greater than yourself which will solve your problem."

We Agnostics

Another Big Book reference is in How It Works, "Our description of the alcoholic, the chapter to the agnostic, and our personal adventures before and after make clear three pertinent ideas:

(a) That we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives.

(b) That probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism.

(c) That God could and would if He were sought."

The first 3 steps actually.

Everyone is free to try whatever they want any way that they want. If the fellowship of AA is objectionable there are people who have achieved sobriety by using the literature and working the 12 Step Program on their own. The Grapevine, an AA publication, is where I have read about them. If someone thinks they don't need or want AA the door swings both ways. It is really simple, it is your choice. If you like the "look and feel" as well as the performance of a web site that conforms to Web Standards and seperates style and content then you ask someone how they did it. These days you will probably end up learning CSS and XHTML to start, maybe a little PHP down the road. If you like the the "look and feel" as well as the performance of people who quit drinking through AA then read the books, go to some meetings and talk to the people there. Then it is your decision.

Jan 6, 2004 9:49:40 AM

Johnny- Sorry, nevermind. Either I asked it the wrong way, or you read it wrong, but you just spent a lot of time and didn't really address anything I was asking about, and I'm still not buying it. But don't worry, I think this is an issue we're not going to see eye to eye on. Different people, different opinions.

And for the record, you said "If you felt, or thought, that you had the power within yourself to stop drinking and stay stopped you wouldn't be here, you would just quit." That's not actually the case. I'm here because I was asked to be here. I don't have a drinking problem, I didn't have a drinking problem, I don't drink. I don't ever consider drinking, that's not who I am.

Jan 6, 2004 2:33:58 PM
18 - Drew

Some people can simply quit drinking on their own because it is not good for them with little or no problem, and I would propose that those people are not Alchoholics. Heavy drinkers maybe, going through a phase perhaps, ready for a life change - but not Alchoholics.

Some people (myself) cannot quit drinking on their own, despite dire consequences. Those people are likely alchoholics. Alchoholism is, after all, a self-diagnosing disease. They need help - their own willpower lasts only so long, and they get drunk again despite their best intentions.

People deliver good help, but while alchoholism is with you 24X7, people cannot be. Therefore, in order to defeat alchoholism, many of us rely on something else to help us.

Ego is the best friend of alchoholism, becuause it tells you that you are OK on your own, despite repeated evidence to the contrary - IE all past attempts at quitting without help, at proving you are not an alchoholic. In other words, a mind and spirit that are broken cannot fix themselves.

IMHO, the word God is just a label. For some people it is a specific label,adhering to religion and dogma, for others it is a general label and a convenient one. I prefer the term "higher power". Belief in a higher power requires faith, trust and a surrender of your own ego. A higher power can be with you always, helping to guide your life and actions. A higher power can be a variant of God, love, the great spirit of the universe, etc. etc. etc.

I have turned my will and my life over to what I call a "higher power of my own mis-understanding". I agree that I do not know who or what my higher power is - I only know that it does not reside between my ears. I know that I am cared for. I no longer have to understand how everything in the universe works and control it. What I am in control of is my actions and thoughts RIGHT NOW. I cannot control the past, the future, other people places and things. I cannot control my alchoholism - I can only control what I can do RIGHT NOW to keep it at bay for today. I cannot control tommorow, and i am not in charge of the universe.

When I finally sobered up, I was willing to do anything to quit drinking, and feeling like I felt. Having been at that point is evidence to me that I am an alchoholic. As a result of that experience, I was willing to surrender the idea that the end-all be-all of the universe is not between my ears. I am not the most powerfull metaphysical force in the universe. This blow to me ego was what allowed me to start giving up my old ways of thinking and acting, in order to embrace new ones that would allow me to live happily without alchohol.

In my experience, if someone is an alchoholic, their chances of staying happy and sober(after all, being drunk and miserable is preferable to being sober and miserable) are greatly increased if they are able to find a Power Greater Than Themselves, otherwise known as a God Of Their Own Understanding or a Higher Power.

To go back to Sean's original question, if someone can stop drinking on their own without having to make drastic changes in perception that require the subjugation of the ego, the nmaybe they aren't an alchoholic. If an individual is a real alchoholic and cannot make the decision to find a higher power of their own understanding(a fairly reasonable thing to try out, in my opinion) then they are either beyond help or not ready to be sober - openmindedness to change is necessary to make change.

Jan 6, 2004 2:39:18 PM

Sean - The "You" was a plural generality - I wasn't clear enough about that, sorry.

"how can a person who does not believe in god, turn around and believe that a power exists and they will let that power run their show?"

In the 2nd step is "came to believe" people have to be desperate or smart enough to see they could get deperate to switch directions like this

"exactly why we're doing this site, because some of us feel that isn't the case at all."

Good luck, I think you'll find you're swimming upstream. The fact that anyone is here indicates a need external to the individual. How do I do this? Have you done it? What is going to happen? Will I be better or worse? Will I be happy or bored?

The only thing you are doing here that is unique from what millions of people have done before you is the setting, the discussions are taking place in a weblog. These discussions have been taking place on the internet for years in one form or another. The quest for another way has been around as long or longer than AA on the ground. I tried everything within my reach and in the end I AA had the solution which I had rejected for years.

Was that any better?

Jan 6, 2004 5:47:39 PM

Johnny- much better. Thank you. I think I see what you mean now, while someone could initially not believe in god, it would take a serious change in that person to get them to stop drinking, which would probably include believing in god. Or a higher power, something god-like. Is that right? I still don't agree, but I at least see where you are coming from.

also, you said "Good luck, I think you'll find you're swimming upstream." Again, I think that's the point. I don't know all the other authors on this site, but the ones I do know generally swim up stream in everything they do. I know that's my preferred course. Going with with flow drives me nuts and I generally try to reinvent the wheel when ever I can. However, I'm not trying to do that here. I don't think any of us are.

This site, at least from my perspective, isn't proposing anything. We're not a new movement, a new self-help group, or anything like that. We're not trying to "do" anything per say, we're just talking. All these conversations have been going on in e-mails back and forth and in comment threads on our own sites, we just decided to bring it together into one place, as it's interesting to us, and might also be interesting to other people.

This isn't a "quest for another way" it's just some friends and other people talking about what they are doing, have done, or are thinking of doing. It's a discussion, not instructions.

Jan 6, 2004 10:26:41 PM
21 - Cissy Rogers

I've heard it said that an alcoholic is a person seeking the spirit at the wrong address! Those who study and write about addiction suggest that we compulsive/addictive types are very spiritual and that part of our attraction to the drink is the enlivened state it temporarily provides.

One way to think about "spirit" -- is through the Latin (spiritus), Greek (pneuma), and Hebraic (ruach) words for it -- all of which can also be translated "breath or air."

I've come to understand spirit as that which breaths life into me. For me, I do have a God concept that is central to my spiritual enlivening. I am connected to a historic religion (raised Catholic, "born again" Protestant throughout my teen and young adult years, and moving into a mystical, inclusive expression of Christian spirituality at this mid-point in my life), yet what God uses to breath life into me is much broader than religion.

The Power greater than myself that restores me to sanity is the spirit of life. Does that have to be tied to a God concept? For me, it is. Yet, many of the avenues through which the life comes have no necessary connection to God. Riding my bike, painting abstract watercolors, laying against warm granite as I watch a sun set -- each of these gives me life. I consider them "spiritual practices" because they feed my spirit.

I heard someone say that religion is the cup and spirituality is the coffee (to use another drinking image!). Religion is what we find or create to contain spirit. While spirit cannot really be contained, we need forms, tools, and avenues of access -- ways to make spirit accessible.

I recall some scholar of religion indicating that the danger with "new age" smorgasbord spirituality is that apart from organized structure, uncontained spirit can be dangerous! That makes some degree of sense to me, yet, I also think that seeking the spirit where it may be found (be it in an organized religion, A.A., or otherwise) makes sense also. If I am thirsty for spirit, beginning to look for a source of water, is only logical. Isn't it?

I quit drinking because it was robbing me of life. At a very basic level, the power I am choosing that is greater than myself, is life itself. My power, at its must fundamental essence, is the power of life -- whatever gives me life and keeps me going.

Jan 7, 2004 10:42:10 AM
22 - Drew

What Cissy said is so rad.

Jan 10, 2004 2:06:18 PM
23 - Ryan

Fascinating conversation; I found this via a link on Danah Boyd's blog (I would have posted it there as well, but I got an error message when I tried to).

I would like to add something to the mix: M. Scott Peck's theory of the four stages of spiritual growth (see URL in my name, or below).

Applying Peck's theory to this whole discussion, I would say that people who feel that AA is a religion are in stage two, while the people who argue otherwise would fall into either stage three or stage four.

Of course, the pre-AA folk would be stage one.

Sep 23, 2004 7:28:38 PM
24 - jeska

i posted a few day ago about a panic attack the attack went away but now i still feel insane like sometimes i think that the world isnt real like i am alone! i am scared i feel like i have been going crazy like seriously insane. right now typing this i feel fake i need help i dont know the cause of all this and i just really want it to go away i keep analyzing people and my self its really doing a number on my head like i feel helpless i want to survuve this i just quit drinking not to long ango and i wanted to know if this could be a side affect

Sep 23, 2004 7:29:57 PM
25 - jeska

please help me get some answers my email address is